Beauties & Beaties

Wednesday, April 05, 2006

Roe v Wade For Beasts

This week, Beauty vs. The Beast takes a look at a controversial subject. The National Center for Men has recently filed suit in behalf of 25 year old Michigan man, Matt Dubay. The lawsuit has become known as Roe v Wade for Men. My question to the Beauty and The Beast was this: If a pregnant woman can choose abortion to opt out of an unwanted pregnancy than should a man have the ability to opt out of the financial responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy?

This post is full of M's as Metal Mark and Mimi give their take on this controversial subject.

He said: Oh, goodness, it's a serious one and I feel the need to address this issue seriously. No, I don't think a man should have the ability to opt out of the financial responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy. Maybe I am oversimplifying the matter, but I am trying to just concentrate on the one question. I don't feel that a man should be able to get out of this and much of the reason relies on the fact that there so many ways to keep from getting into this situation. It takes two to tango, my friend. If you have sex then you risk getting a woman pregnant. I know that in this specific case that the women assured the man that she couldn't get pregnant, but there's always exceptions and you have be prepared for that. There is a risk and a responsibility involved here and my feeling is they go hand in hand. If you take the risk of having sex and she gets pregnant then you take the responsibility.

This lawsuit is trying to get rid of the responsibility part. However this is not a business deal, it shouldn't be treated like a negotiation for a contract by saying what you do and don't want. This is the way bodies work, you have sex then the woman might have a baby. That concept was pretty much fully in place long before a legal system was established. I understand that not all men want children, but this is something you should work out before the bedroom. Bringing the legal system could put an absolute answer to it then the woman's options become limited. There are already enough problems with men not paying child support that we don't need to toss another factor into the mix. I don't think we need another law in place to remove responsibility away from individuals. We have become a selfish society in many ways because we spend so much time saying what "I" want or what's best for "me". Yes, you do have to care of yourself to some extent, but there comes a time when you have to think of others and not just today, but for tomorrow as well.

She said: The man is this case has a small point (no pun intended, actually he's got big one's to try this). But he does not have the right to choose not to pay child support. This man is taking this way too far and it is sad that he is able to pursue it as far as he has. Some men may assume my opinion is because I am a woman. And women always stick together, just like we never go to the bathroom alone. We women are always willing to put our petty differences aside (such as hating another woman because she looks better in a bikini) to gang up on men as a team is how it seems to many men I am sure. However I often choose a man's side. But not in this case.

First of all this man claims that he was tricked because his girlfriend told him she was on the birthcontrol pill. Whether that is true or not, it does not matter. He should know that the birthcontrol pill is not 100% effective. The only guarantee that you won't create a unwanted pregnancy is to not have sex. If he is willing to gamble, he has to pay when the cards don't go his way. A woman could also claim she was tricked into getting pregnant. The man may have promised to pull out and didn't, some women still fall for that one. Or the man could have lied about wearing a condom or the condom could have broke. So does the woman then have the right to hand the baby over to the dad when it is born and say she didn't want it, won't raise it, or pay support? The National Center For Men would then claim men are victims forced into single parenthood. So then there is the argument that the woman can choose to have an abortion and the man can't. The woman has a way out and the man doesn't. Well yes, some may look at it that way. But I see the man's way out as not having sex in the first place. Yes, I know blue one's are painful. But not nearly as painful as a abortion, or giving birth.

This man needs to be told the simple and well known saying "If you play, you pay". Yes, maybe some men are getting the short end of the stick in this situation. But hey, now they will know how it feels.


Blogger :P fuzzbox said...

Great job from both of you. Thanks so much for guest posting. As for my opinion, I will wait until tomorrow. Thanks again.

4:58 AM  
Blogger Dr. Cissa Fireheart said... was awesome posts you guys. Good points. Very nice to read a man's point of view that was actually responsible and *gasp* actually on the side of the woman!

Mimi, you know I love you anyway and we're so similar it's scary....

great job you two!

6:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Fuzz! I am glad that I did it and will do it again anytime! At first I didn't know how to put my opinion in words. But once I got going I couldn't stop. I had to edit if for length.

Cissa, Thanks! I LOVE YOU TOO!

Mark, I was wondering who my beast would be. It was nice to see it was you! You did great, and not just because you agree with me! ;)

6:59 AM  
Blogger Green Eyes said...

Great job, both of you!

I get really tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions.

Let's think of the baby, for once.

8:08 AM  
Blogger angel, jr. said...

I don't understand how a person could not want to help their own child.

9:03 AM  
Blogger Curare_Z said...

Good job on a tough issue you two!

** Soap Box Rant **
It always bothers me that people think that the standard for women's reproductive rights is Roe v. Wade. That case began the debate, but the Supreme Court actually decided the current state of the law in Planned Parenthood v. Casey.
** Off Soap Box Now **

I actually understand where The National Center for Men is coming from. It is true that if a pregnancy occurs, the man doesn't really get to choose whether the woman carries to term, aborts, or whatever.

That being said, the child is the one that always loses.

So, I think men and women need to step up take responsibility for their actions. If you're having sex, you better have discussed or be prepared for this possibility!!!

9:25 AM  
Blogger RT said...

Great post! And great responses, Mark and Mimi!

I still don't have a strong opinion on this subject, because I see good arguments for both sides.

But I do have a couple of concerns that I haven't heard addressed yet. One is the fairness of the law if Roe vs. Wade is overturned. And the other is how do you get past the he said/she said factor, especially when you consider that no form of birth control carries the guarantee that you won't become pregnant?

9:55 AM  
Blogger Big D said...

Wow, I've never thought about this topic. It's going to take a thought. I can't agree or disagree yet. There are all sorts of angles I'm going to have to consider.

9:59 AM  
Anonymous the weirdgirl said...

I have thought about this topic because I've seen the other side. I want to speak a counter argument here for a sec (sorry, soapbox starting). California is one of the few (and maybe only) states where visitation rights and child support are separate, i.e. in other states if a deadbeat dad does not pay his child support he can't see his kids, period. In California a deadbeat dad can still see his kids even if he has never paid one cent to help support them! And if the mother refuses she is legally in contempt of court. I have a friend who is mother to two girls, aged 9 and 5. The relationship with their father was a huge mistake. He's not only a deadbeat but got increasingly controlling and abusive the longer she was with him. She broke it off with him when she got pregnant the second time. He still will drive by her house just to see if she's there (and I mean this in a scary stalker way)!

Anyway, my point is this. He has never helped support these girls, he insists on getting "his weekend" more to screw with their mom more than in any desire to see his children, and he has even threatened to "disappear" with the girls when he's trying to get something out of their mother. The girls don't even want to spend time with any more. The court process is so long it's taken the last five years to get to a point where he finally is threatened with jail time for not paying. The mom would be more than happy, after supporting her girls entirely by herself all these years, to waive all his financial responsibility if he would just relinquish all visitation rights to his daughters. Even though she's struggled and could use the money, the chance to get this controlling, drug-using, potentially dangerous deadbeat out of her and the children's lives forever would be worth it.

OK, I'm done now. Sorry about the long rant. Yes, I think both parents should take responsibility. But I also wanted to share a story of what happens when one parent refuses to be responsible but is still allowed access to the childrens' lives.

10:58 AM  
Blogger KC said...

This is a difficult one. I feel for both the men and the women who are confronted with this particular problem. I don't think there is an easy answer to this... at least not for me.

11:43 AM  
Anonymous Bruce said...

If you took part in it, you're responsible, 'nuff said.

12:58 PM  
Blogger Crazy Dan said...

I think the woman was the one being selfish and irresponsible. The man was upfront and honest about not wanting a baby and not wanting to be stuck with this woman or any financial obligations with her. From what I understand he even offered for her to have an abortion and she refused. If she wants the baby so bad then SHE can pay for it. It is obvious she is not ready for a baby and just because you can have one does not mean you should.

3:22 PM  
Blogger :P fuzzbox said...

My views on both abortion and women's rights have nothing to do with my feelings on this issue. It is my opinion that any man who does not own up to his responsibility to his progeny is scum. Our legal system is based on the fact that even scum have an equal protection of their rights. If a woman is given the right to opt out of their responsibility by abortion without the consent of the man, then it is only fair that the man be given this same right and be allowed to opt out of all parental rights and responsibilities. If this is not allowed we are saying that the man has equal rights and responsibilities from the moment of conception. In that case it is only fair that he should be consulted in the case of abortion and be given the right to halt the abortion and be given the right to raise the child on his own.

It is not a question of rightness or wrongness. It is a question of fairness. I know that life is not fair but shouldn't our laws be fair.

3:52 PM  
Blogger phred said...

Good points by both.
WHAT rights does the baby have ??
I believe the unborn baby has all the rights any other human being does. Sorry, but life begins at conception.
Yes ,the Dad has to be responsible.

Same for the play, you pay..

No abortion just for the sake of convience.
You don`t want the baby, give it to the Dad. Then you can pay child support.

6:07 PM  
Blogger RAVEN the PITA said...

My friend is now in this situation - met someone online - met up and had some whoopie - was on the pill - and got pregnant. She had had some antibiotics a week or two into the relationship which will throw off your pill cycle, she thought that was what happened. From the doc's estimation the baby was conceived before the meds so she was just part of that small percent that got pregnant while on the pill. So now the guy she had stopped seeing is the father and he's been told and has made her feel like the 'the little dark secret'. Doesn't want the kid, doesnt find out how she's doing and says he isn't excited about it. Just goes to show its better to be 'safe' than sorry (and i gotta say if I met someone over the internet for a sexual interlude there's no way I'm having sex without using a rubber!)

One thing I do want to add is that I believe in both parties supporting the child, but I gotta say I'm a full supporter of Dads and the amount they get raked over to pay. I do not believe when a mother has custody that the father should be paying out his ass for child support, especially when its to the point that he can't even support himself. It should be an automatic percentage of their pay that leaves them enough to live off of. So many women just stick to the Dads out there and it's really not fair. If the Dads are paying child support - I think it should be automatically taken out of paychecks before taxes for whichever is paying child support - so they don't pay taxes on it and it would then be counted as income for the mother and they should have to be taxed on it. I dont get why the fathers have to pay this huge support payment, and the mothers receive that, then get the whole child credit at taxtime. Sometimes this system can be pretty shitty.

8:12 PM  
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8:21 PM  
Blogger starbender said...

First, Let me say... 2 the post above mine....IDIOT!!!
Go Advertise somewhere else! I hate those "copy and paste" ads! They are sooo lame!

Metal Mark and MimiWow! Great Job 2 the both of U. This isn't an easy subject and you both have valid points. Just like weirdgirl, I'm throwing my 2 cents in...
I know a guy who is a great dad. However, his X is a flaming B*tch, he has a daughter that he hasn't seen in 16 yrs. He pays all his child support, but has been refused ALL visitation at the Mothers request! Mom remarried 2 weeks after their divorce! Still this man had 2 pay child support 2 a daughter he would love 2 see, but doesn't know her, and hasn't a clue as to where she is. The mom's new husband supported the daughter, along with this man I know. Life is just Not Fair! If you feel U must abort-do it immediately, if U have a child, please support and love that child! That's all that matters!

1:58 AM  
Blogger Green Eyes said...

Have to comment to Raven the Pita,

My ex is paying me 1/3 less than he should, because I know he needs to live.

At the same time, so do I. Everyone keeps telling me to get the full amount, so I don't struggle month to month, but I can't do it.

If he would only buy me a pack of diapers every once in awhile, that would help tremndously, but he's never once even done that.

But, I agree with you, and I try to be as fair as I can. Even when I'm not being treated the same.

7:34 AM  
Anonymous tubawench said...

Sticky topic. The reason I don't like the idea of allowing a man to opt out is that there are too many who voluntarily had sex with a woman (with or without protection) who have already opted out by being deadbeats. I fear that this will open up a floodgate of people trying to get out. It could become a he said, she said battle of whether either one wanted a child or used protection. If a person has a strong desire to not have children than he/she should a)consider surgery, b) use multiple methods of birth control, c) experiment with alternative forms of sex, or d) don't have sex! You play, you pay. The woman is stuck with the child or the horrible decision of giving it up through adoption or abortion. I haven't heard of many fathers that have offered to take the baby once the mother gives birth when she doesn't want it. I don't want to see abortion made illegal because it will disproportionately hurt poor women. That said, I have always felt bad that men don't have as much of a say as women in the abortion decision, but since they aren't the ones that carry the baby, it's hard to change it.

7:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Being a single mom myself, I can see both the pros and cons. Unfortunately, there is no clear answer and it can never be black and white. It boils down to financial responsibility, and in most states that is tied directly to visitation privileges. Personally, I opted to not seek any child support due to this; sometimes it's just better to have the person out of your lives. Just my opinion, of course.

10:15 AM  
Blogger Jamie Dawn said...

Good job by both.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

Mimi said "But I see the man's way out as not having sex in the first place."
That could be said of all women who end up with uwanted pregancies.

When women take the chance and get pregnant, they often go get an abortion, by the millions in this country. Men have sex and create an uwanted pregancy, and they are at the mercy of the woman's decision.
This guy makes a valid point.

I think a life shouldn't be easily tossed away by men or women.
This guy is Pro-Choice, and he is saying that he doesn't want the responsibility or inconvenience of this kid, just as women say when they choose to abort.

If the birth control pill was properly taken or condoms were worn EVERY time people who didn't want to have a pregnancy had sex, then the unwanted pregos would be GREATLY reduced. People are too lazy to do what works.

I am basically pro-choice, but I abhor abortion. I think people take the easy way out instead of being responsible, and it bugs me. This guy is making his "choice", even if I don't agree with him.

Like I said:

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

11:52 AM  
Blogger David Amulet said...

Great posts and comments. This may be the most serious we have been here yet.

One of the lines in the post reminded me that there is a recent case of a man forced to be a single parent. A judge ruled that a woman who had sex with a teenager and got pregnant, had to go to jail and could not have any contact with the father of her child. So now there is a baby, which can't live in jail ... and the VICTIM of the crime, the father, is being forced to raise the child alone. Justice?

-- david

12:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everyone has such good points. I pity the judge that has to make this decision.

6:09 PM  
Blogger RAVEN the PITA said...

Green Eyes - I hear ya girl! It's definitely not easy being a single mom. Don't get me wrong I think the Dads should support their kids and be a big part of their lives - and that includes buying diapers once in a while. (I hope you don't send any when they go to visit! Make him buy his own ;-) LOL) I'm not getting child support right now - but he is in another country and I am getting by ok without it. If I got to the point where I needed it I'd be taking measures to get some. I guess my point is it's all about making sure the kids are taken care of - not whether or not you get enough money to have a maid, or a cell phone, or all the movie channels ...

7:42 PM  
Blogger :P fuzzbox said...

My thanks to all the commenters. I felt that it was time to tackle a tough subject and you all proved that you were ready as well. Thanks again and a special thanks to Metal Mark and Mimi for taking on a tough issue.

4:43 AM  
Blogger Ranea said...

There are no wrong or right answers to this debate.I just wish both parties would think of the children that didn't ask to be brought into this.
And I know how mom's not getting child support feel. It took 8 yrs. to track down my ex-husband for support.I doubt that he ever worried if he would have a warm coat or new shoes.

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6:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This shouldn't even be an issue--because unnecessary abortion should be illegal. A woman claims that she has the right to have her unborn child killed, since it's "her body". But it's not her body--it's the body of another human being inside her body. And this other human being has the right to live!

3:27 AM  

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